Hi guys,
This morning I took my first 5 gallon swiss out of the press, expecting great results. The only problem is that this cheese does not look like it’s ready for the brine bath.
Although the cheese is nice and firm (and elastic as a swiss should be), there is a somewhat open texture to the surface of the cheese.
It really looks as if the curd did not knit completely together at the surface. I have these tiny fissures on the top, bottom and the sides. I don’t know if they would really hurt anything, but I’m used to a swiss coming out of the mold completely smooth and comepletely sealed.
The only thing that I did differently was to not use a cheesecloth in the mold. I did this because I didn’t want the cloth crease that you usually see on the top. I’m wondering if these fissures are the result of not using a cloth. I’ve also wondered if I might have needed to use a little extra pressing weight since this is a much larger wheel than I’m used to.
What I’ve done at this point is to wrap the cheese in a cloth and put it back into the press.
I plan on pressing it for another hour or two…..give it a flip and repeat the pressing time and see if this helps. I’m hoping this extended pressing time doesn’t harm the cheese but I really don’t want to put it into the brine without having a smooth surface.
Any advice would be appreciated.
By the way….If I still have this problem after removing it from the press, I’ll try to get a pic so you can actually see what I’m talking about.
In my Gouda recipe, there is some advice if there is a failing of the curd to knit properly. It says to dip the cheese into 100 degree water (though it doesn’t say for how long) and then press it for an additional 30 minutes. I’m assuming you can do the same thing with your Swiss. It would seem sensible, as the warmer temp should aid in the knitting process.
Might be too dry or too acid so producing cracks.
to minimize the creases from the cloth I just do the bottom and sides and place a plat object on top, then pull the sides of the cloth to take the slack as the curds compress, then flip and it gradually becomes very minimum.
Rich….
That does sound like a feasible idea. Since this appears to only be a problem on the surface of the cheeese, I shouldn’t have to dip it for long. I’ll give this a try and let you know how it works out.
Thanks for the advice.
Dave
Yeah, you could be right, Neil. I’m not exactly sure what went wrong with this batch, but it never did come out of it. The brining is helping…..it’s looking somewhat better but it’s still not a completely smooth surface. I am positive that this will still make a cheese judging from the feel of it. I’ve just gotten used to swiss really looking good when it comes out of the press, so this is a new one on me.
Oh well, live and learn. There will be plenty of time to try more batches in the future (God willing).
Thanks again for the advice.
Dave
Guys,
The following is some information I got from another cheesemaker that posts on a second site that I use.
He has proven himself to have a very analytical mind when it comes to cheesemaking and I’ve seen tons of great advice/information that he has posted.
I think he might just be on the money concerning what went wrong with this cheese. My larger wheel really did look like what you would get if it wasn’t pressed sufficiently.
BTW…I’m not sure if I mentioned it before, but I used a new 8” hard cheese mold for this five gallon batch. This is the reason he gave me this information.
I asked him if it would be okay if I posted the information on this site in hopes that it can help someone else in the future. Thanks to “Cartierusm” for the following:
Dave, Wayne and I have talked about this extensively and we’ve come to the conclusion that the pressure (pounds of force) giving for recipes are for 4” wheels. When going up from that you have to figure out the actual pounds per square inch. So for a 4” wheel it’s 2 * 2 (radius squared) * 3.15 (Pi) = 12.6 square inches. For a wheel pressed at 20 pounds of force: 20/12.6 = 1.59 pounds per square inch. If you’re using the new mold 8” in diamter: 4 * 4 * 3.15 = 50.4 sq. in. ; then you have to just keep uping the weight on a calculator until you get the same pounds per square inch as the original recipe. For this large mold and 20 pounds of force from the original recipe you’ll need 80 pounds (weight) to press this cheese, now you see why I build a press with a pneumatic cylinder, don’t even ask the pressures I have to press for 50 pounds of force on large wheels of cheese. I might just have to run my truck over it.
I will be giving this procedure a try on my next large batch (probably over the weekend) and I’ll let everyone know the results.
Oh….
Since my recipe called for 14 lbs. pressing pressure, this wold work out to 56 lbs. for the same result.
That seems like a lot for a swiss but man…..this guy really makes some good looking cheeses.
As I said, I’ll give it a try and let you all know how it works out.
I don’t know, Dave; I kind of have my doubts on the extra pressure theory. I will certainly be open to some empirical data; but when I switched from 4” to 6” I didn’t notice any appreciable difference. According to the theory advanced, I would need double the pressure, since I more than doubled my surface area, and that would certainly make a very big difference in the outcome of my pressing. Guess I’ll wait and see what happens with your next batch.
Guys,
Here’s a couple of shots of this cheese, fresh out of the brine. The cheese itself seems really dense and it has formed a fairly hard rind on the surface. There is still some elasticity in the cheese, but it’s not nearly as soft and flexible as my previous attempts have been.
I don’t know how this one will turn out (I forsee some serious mold problems during the sweating stage) but we’ll see.
If you have any advice, let me know.
Thanks,
Dave
Okay, let me rephrase….
Above you will see ONE shot of my cheese. I’m not sure what happened, but only one of my photos showed up.
On the bright side, I do feel that I had better luck with these photos. Thanks to the advice Neil and Rich gave me, at least you can see the detail I was after.
Thanks guys!
Let me try this again….
Here’s another.
Rich,
I have to say that I’m a little bit leary about adding so much pressure as well. When I moved from a 4” to a 6” I also used the exact same amount of pressing weight as I had used before, with no problems.
I tried so many things that are new to me on this particular wheel and the problem could be any one of them or a combination of several of them….increased amounts of rennet and culture…no cheese cloth….direct heat, larger cheese mold….....
I’ll have to give this a little more thought before I try another large batch. I do want to move up in size but I don’t want to sacrifice quality to do so.
Maybe I’ll try a different recipe for my next large batch since swiss is not an easy cheese to make under the best of curcumstances.
Nice pictures and a very nice looking cheese, very nice indeed !!!
As to adding more pics, just hit the prevue and then u can add another pic, u have to keep doing that each time u add one.
Neil,
Thanks for the advice on how to add multiple pics.
As for the cheese, it really gripes me that I have this “open” texture on the surface of the cheese. I’ve been corresponding with a couple of different cheesemakers, concerning this problem, and they are convinced that I didn’t use enough pressing weight for a wheel of this size (8” diameter). I’m still not totally convinced that I need to use the amount of weight they have recommended but I am convinced that extra pressure is required for a larger wheel.
For my next large batch I’m going to up the pressure although I’m not sure I will go to the extremes that have been recommended. For my 14 # recipe press, (on a swiss), they have recommended a pressing weight of 56 lbs..
I will say that their math makes sense, but man that seems like an extreme increase.
My thinking right now is trying a modest increase (perhaps doubled to 28#) and see how it goes. If that turns out to not be enough then I’ll try a further increase, probably to the amount that has been suggested.
My main problem with this theory is that if I decide to do a Cheddar (with a final pressing weight of 50# for a 4” wheel) this would correspond to 200# on an 8 inch wheel !
I’ll try to keep everyone informed with my results of different pressing weights used. I really do want to move to large batches but in no way do I want to sacrifice quality to do so.
Dave, you might just be able to get the desired result with additional pressing TIME, instead of increasing the weight. Pressure spreads evenly throughout the mass, and it may just require additional time to expel moisture from a larger mass.
My fear in moving to larger wheels and pressing with massive amounts of weight are the same. I have done the same as you and am now using about double the weight (the parmesan last pressing below is at 18kg whne the recomended weight was 20 lbs) the cheese looks fine but am now worried about the fact that it may have been too little (mostly from reading how real parmesan’s are made in Italy for their standard wheel size and doing the math backwards).
In looking at Parmesan making in Italy the wheels are between 33kg and 44kg in weight and are a diameter of 14-16 inches and about 7 - 9 inches high (these are the Italian D.O.C. control requirement specifications). My large Parmesian is 9 1/2 inches in diameter and 7 inches high this implies that it is not dense enough, hence perhaps too little weight when pressing even though I double the weight from my 6 inch press (20lbs to 18kg).
The math says that I am increasing the surface area 113 sq in to 254 sq inch which to me says the weight should go up by about 2.5 times. I will press with more weight next time.
It does also brings up another interesting question. That is increasing the length of time in the brine bath due to the extra size of the cheese. I have read that the D.O.C. Parmesan’s in italy are brined for 2-3 weeks! I have a feeling that the density of the cheese is important for this but also is the weightof the cheese. I have read somewhere else (cant remember where), that you should brine at least 1hour per inch per pound of cheese. In both Ricci Carrol and Tim Smith’s books they recomend that you brine for at 24 hours (they are expecting a 2 pound yield).
Given the dimensions of my parmesan and its weight ( 5.4 kg or about 12 lbs) it should be in brine for about 84 hours. Does this make sense to anyone? I have now had it brine for 36 hours and was thinking about taking it out at 48 hours, but having just done the math I am not so sure anymore.
Doing the same math for a real D.O.C parmesan (assuming a 38kg wheel 8 inches high) yields a brine time of 710 hours or 27 days. Close to the Italian Parmesan information I have read.
Volume is diameter x height (cylinder).
6"x4"high is 24sq, a 8"diameter x4” is 32sq so I would add at least 30% more weight. This is not exact but its a place to start. I dont recall the the exact mathematics but I could check to see if I can find it again.
