For the record, I could not open the spreadsheet file. I just calculated the psi for each weight at 4” and then adjusted to the weight that would give me the same psi for 6”. I then modified my recipe book with the heavier weights. Same principle, just a bit more pencil work.
and they say they’re pressing their colby at 40 psi! Can this be correct?
I will be interested in your findings, I don’t believe you’ll notice a difference.
If you look in the background of the photo you’ll see the moulds are horizontal, also a number of them. This effectively makes the overall ‘depth’ of the pressing deeper, needing high pressure.
Now visualize a vertical press, which we use, now increase the depth of the pressing, more pressure is needed, but not if you increase the diameter.
I have been convinced for some time that we have been ‘conned’ by an ‘old wives tale’ that pressure is paramount in producing a good wheel. When I went from a 4” to a 6” wheel I did not increase the pressure,and didn’t notice any difference. But when I increased the depth, then I had to increase the pressure.
I believe curd preparation is more important than pressing. For example. Parmesan is rarely pressed, but moulded hot straight from the whey, same with Cheddar, When reading recipes there is little noted on keeping the curds warm!
Please keep us posted on your outcome.
I’m not sure who is saying that pressure is paramount in producing a good wheel. I certainly am not. There are so many variables to cheese making that that i’m sure what is paramount. It, however, is important, like any other step, and as such, pressure deserves to be understood.
Like any other aspect of cheesemaking, you should press (or not press) based on trying to accomplish something. IT should be done purposfully
-A closed curd,
-A consistant product
-An open curd.
-A moist curd
...
Like every other aspect cheesemaking, some amount of thought needs to go into pressing. Most recipes for us amateurs seem to be written for 4” moulds. Using these recipes, on may not be able to detect any difference using 6” moulds. But, I don’t think its reasonable to assume that the wieght used for a 4” mould would provide the needed pressure for a large 18” wheel.
The wieght used to press your cheese, like any other aspect of a modified recipe, should be subject to modification as the recipe is adjusted. You would not hesitate using more rennet, or more starter culture if you doubled or tripled the recipe. If the recipe calles for a certain wieght and assumes a 4” mould, the recipe is then implying a certain PSI. (Pressure=Force/Area). If you change the area (size of the wheel), it just makes sense to adjust the force to maintain the recipe implied pressure.
Someone I respect once said, “Cheesemaking is all about managing the subtle changes that differentiate a great cheese from a mediocre cheese”.
Pressure is just one of those things to manage.
Again, I am not saying that pressure is paramount, I’m just saying that it should be considered like any other aspect
You know…by using a 2# cheese recipe and putting it into a 6” mold instead of a 4” mold, I still was getting the exact same amount of pressure per CUBIC INCH of cheese curd as the original recipe specified. Maybe that’s the crucial factor here, and why taking a 2# recipe and putting it into a 6” mold doesn’t cause problems, but when you go from a 6” mold to an 8” mold, of course you’re talking a much more massive cheese. No one would put a 2# recipe into an 8” mold—it would be about half an inch thick. And most people going from a 6” mold to an 8” mold are doing so because they -want- to make a more massive cheese, not because they want their 5# cheese to be flatter.
I think it might be pounds per cubic inch that matters, not psi.
I do agree that thickness of the mould plays a part. I will also say that the type of cheese plays a part.
I do not argue that whatsoever.
I was merely talking about adjusting recipies in order to keep the pressure consistant across different wheel sizes.
So for example, if you had a 4” wheel that is 3” deep, and a 10” wheel, that is also 3” deep,
the surface area increases from 12.4si to 78.5si. So in order to maintain a constant pressure (specifc psi) on your wheel, you will need to increase the force (wieght).
While there may a relationship between cheese volume and surface area, I think that they may not be linked.
In the case above, the volume of cheese increases from 37.5cuin to 235.5cu. But I am not sure that an increase in PSI is warrented as the depth of the cheese curds remains constant. Keeping in mind that keeping the pressure constant will require more wieght in the larger wheel due that wieght being distributed over more square inches of cheese.
However, if the same 4” mould had 10” of curd instead of 3” of curd, i would undertsand if more wieght was required to properly press that wheel.
So while cubic inches is relevant, i’m not sure how.
Guys,
Just as Wayne said I’m not even close to being an expert in cheesemaking but I do rely on what works for me.
I’ll try pretty much anything once, as long as the advice sounds feasible.
Since I’m turing out the best wheels I’ve ever made, using the higher pressing weights, I’ll continue using this method.
Honestly, if I found that stirring my curd while standing on one leg and whistling the theme to Bonanza made a better final cheese, I would do exactly that (at least until they came and took me away).
I try not to overthink the process, but I do like to hear new ideas and see if they work. So far, doing this has helped me to be a better cheesemaker than I was even a year ago.
The great thing about these boards is that we have several minds, constantly working on the same problems.
In my opinion the theories and findings of others who MAKE cheese, (not just write about making cheese) ,is the most valuable resource I have going for me.
Okay, stepping down from my soapbox now.
Guys,
Just as Wayne said I’m not even close to being an expert in cheesemaking but I do rely on what works for me.
I’ll try pretty much anything once, as long as the advice sounds feasible.
OK, no problem with that. But there has been no mention of the final texture obtained. Let’s suppose just for a moment that the pressure statement is wrong and we’re all pressing too hard, what will be the outcome? Dry, crumbly? Are we not trying to emulate the cheese made by the ‘professional’ makers? In which case we should in some case be minimizing the pressure, not overloading it.
I refer to Parmesan which is rarely pressed and then only lightly.
A can of worms, hardly, just a good discussion in my view.
Newbie..
Thanks for your response..
I’ll admit that I’ve only tried two cheeses ,so far, at the higher pressing weights.
One was a Farmhouse Cheddar and the other was a Gouda.
In both of these cheeses the texture was the best that I’ve seen to date, both firm and moist with very few air/whey pockets.
Also, I’m getting ready to post a new pic of my latest swiss wheel, also using the heavier pressing weights.
This is the first swiss that I’ve gotten significant swelling on which could be the result of the best swiss curd I’ve ever gotten, the pressing weights or a combination of both.
Again, thanks for your post.
Dave, I hate to ask you to possibly reiterate something you’ve already said, but just for my clarification—could you tell me exactly what changes in pressure you made for which size of mold for, say, the Farmhouse Cheddar? (I picked that one simply because that’s the one I’m working on now.)
Did you see any other changes? I assume the cheeses were a bit flatter?
Thanks!
Val
Likesspace - 04 February 2009 02:42 AM
Newbie..
Thanks for your response..
I’ll admit that I’ve only tried two cheeses ,so far, at the higher pressing weights.
One was a Farmhouse Cheddar and the other was a Gouda.
In both of these cheeses the texture was the best that I’ve seen to date, both firm and moist with very few air/whey pockets.
Also, I’m getting ready to post a new pic of my latest swiss wheel, also using the heavier pressing weights.
This is the first swiss that I’ve gotten significant swelling on which could be the result of the best swiss curd I’ve ever gotten, the pressing weights or a combination of both.
Again, thanks for your post.
Guys,
Just as Wayne said I’m not even close to being an expert in cheesemaking but I do rely on what works for me.
I’ll try pretty much anything once, as long as the advice sounds feasible.
OK, no problem with that. But there has been no mention of the final texture obtained. Let’s suppose just for a moment that the pressure statement is wrong and we’re all pressing too hard, what will be the outcome? Dry, crumbly? Are we not trying to emulate the cheese made by the ‘professional’ makers? In which case we should in some case be minimizing the pressure, not overloading it.
I refer to Parmesan which is rarely pressed and then only lightly.
A can of worms, hardly, just a good discussion in my view.
A note to your question of texture with additional pressing weight. I’ve only opened one since using greater weight - a Manchego, which requires a very short aging period. The texture was (is) superb! Before it was similar to Velveeta, but now its very close to a commercial Colby. The best I’ve produced thus far. So I don’t think that texture is adversely affected - rather the contrary.
Val..
My recipe for Farmhouse Cheddar listed the final pressing weight as 50 lbs. (assuming a 4” mold).
Since I used an 8” mold that made the final pressing weight on my wheel 202 lbs.
It was a bit of a pain stacking and unstacking the weights but the curd did form really well and the texture was…..not perfect, but closer to anything I had made previously.
As for the thickness of the wheel, I really didn’t notice much difference at all.
I honestly think I was getting most of the whey out of the cheese during the draining process and not from the pressing of the cheese.
The pressing is much more help in forming the texture of the curd although it does help expel more whey as well.
I might have lost an 1/8 of an inch in height but probably not much more than that.
Hope this helps.
Good information.
Always good to have real data to work from.
I did read that it is recommended for commercial presses to use up to 26psi on cheddar. Hard to believe, but those must be very deep, hydraulically pressed cheese blocks.
Very little to do with cheese that you and I and the folks here press.
Here is the quote: “Later work suggested that pressures greater than 180 kPa appeared to be required during and after vacuum pressing to achieve a close texture (Robertson, 1965b).”
