In the last week I’ve been running experiments on Parmesan and feel I should share the results, especially in light of all the posts on pressing.
The first Parmesan of two I made, the recipe to which I posted, was for a 2 gallon, 6 inch mould, using Ricki’s recipe
I have made Parmesan and others, but haven’t been happy with any of the rind which I made. Open and friable, with cracks.
Now for the first time I have got it right!
I worked the standard recipe, but found that the cooking temp was too low, I had to take it to 150F before I got the squeaky curds required for a dry cheese.
The final change was to ignore the draining phase. I have watched the video of Parmesan making from a site in Italy and they go straight from the pot into the mould, in fact their vats ‘steam’. Also there is a video on Swiss cheese making and the same thing, straight from the pot into the forms.
So I elected to go that route. The results are amazing. I used only 15lbs in the 6 inch mould, hot pressed for 10 minutes and got superb melding. Smooth all round. I then flipped it rewrapping etc for another 10 minutes to firm the other end and got a gorgeous cheese.
I did a final press overnight at 30lbs, but in retrospect it wasn’t necessary.
One experiment does not give total answers and often just creates more questions. To ensure that I had it right I tried a second experiment yesterday, using the same recipe but with some modification. I felt that the first curds were a bit soft when I came to cut, so I doubled the amount of Calcium and got a firmer curd at cut time. The results were even better as this time I flipped it much faster on the first two presses. I also removed the air drying phase as that formed a semi hard rind which I believe will interfere with the brining.
I firmly believe, and time will tell, that we should be re-writing these recipes that call for a draining period, that phase seems to cool the curd below the point where the curds will meld together easily. Pushing up the pressure to compensate for that is not the real answer.
In Tim Smith’s book there is a sidebar by Eran Wajswol which reads “..pressing cheese is a give-and-take game. You should press to remove whey, but you should not press too hard, or you will close the pores in the rind and trap whey. Mistakes manifest themselves quickly into ugly rinds.”
The best analogue I can supply, making a joint in woodworking, using clamps to draw the joint together will only work if there is sufficient glue. More pressure does not help, it just squeezes the glue out, take off the pressure and the joint falls apart. The same with cheese, we are missing the ‘glue’ to hold it all together giving a good rind, by allowing the curds to cool too far.
I challenge all of you to reconsider the recipes, which lets face it are not written in stone, do some experiments with me and see if you confirm my findings, also to publish any revised recipes on the front page of this site to assist others in the search for a better rind.
We talked about this kind of stuff long time ago. When people were scared not to get it right on the mark, it was pointed out that as home cheese makers its impossible to get something consistent 100%. We cant maintain the perfectly consistent humidity to age the cheese, we can maintain a perfectly consistent temperate (heck my fridge in sumer fluctuates 10F) Theirs also the fact that depending on the elevation that we live in, it will change cooking affects. The massive varieties of cheese on this planet is because every one uses dif techniques and conditions. Thats what makes this hobby very interesting, we can make something unique. Books/recipes are guidelines to understand the process and then we get out feet wet, and we are then on our way to have fun and be creative. creating a “cookie cutter” type cheese may be fun for the first couple of times but the adventure and surprise as to how the cheese turns out I thingk is allot more fun.
Newbie…
First of all, congratulations on the success! It always feels good to see a cheese turn out as you had hoped.
As for the draining stage….
In a cheese like parmesan, and even a swiss, the curds are cooked at a high temp. and are drastically reduced in size as a result.
My swiss and parmesan curds truly do end up about the size of a grain of wheat and from growing up on a farm I know just how small that actually is.
Since the curd on these varieties end up so small and firm, it’s easy for the whey to drain once they go into the mold.
I have been following the same method of taking the curds from the whey to the pot and have also had wonderful results.
The problem is that with other styles of cheese the draining stage is one that is very necessary.
For instance if you were to skip the draining on a colby or monterey jack style cheese the moisture content would be exceedingly high, to the point of never getting the whey to drain.
The same would also go for a Toscano style or a Gouda.
These are higher moisture cheeses, by nature, and without draining the cheese would end up with a very open inner texture, at best.
At worst, the cheese would never form a rind and could actually begin to “rot” from the inside out.
On a side note, when I began to press my first English Cheddar the curds were not just cool they were downright cold!
Regardless, the milled curds (approx. 1” - 2” squares) pressed out perfectly as can be seen in the photos I posted.
I contribute this to following the method of pressing that takes into account the actual P.S.I. that is being exerted on the cheese, not just a certain amount of force.
I understand that you are not convinced this is needed but to me, the proof is in the inner texture moreso than the outer rind.
Recently I opened a 6” wheel of Gouda that I used the recipe pressing weights on.
The exterior of the cheese looked perfect but the interior was quite open and fell apart when attempting to slice.
I also recently opened an 8” wheel of Stirred Curd Cheddar that I used the higher pressing weights on.
The exterior of this cheese looked pretty much the same as the Gouda, but the interior was amazing!
It slices perfectly and has a very closed texture that holds up no matter how thinly the cheese is sliced.
In no way is it excessivly dry or crumbly and in fact it is the best cheese I have produced to date.
Just wanted to give you this information in hopes that you will give the higher weights a try and see if you turn out the same results.
Regardless, thanks for the post.
I agree that with a swiss or a parmesan your method of pressing a warm curd is essential to a good final result.
Since the curd on these varieties end up so small and firm, it’s easy for the whey to drain once they go into the mold.
I have been following the same method of taking the curds from the whey to the pot and have also had wonderful results.
The problem is that with other styles of cheese the draining stage is one that is very necessary.
For instance if you were to skip the draining on a colby or monterey jack style cheese the moisture content would be exceedingly high, to the point of never getting the whey to drain.
The same would also go for a Toscano style or a Gouda.
These are higher moisture cheeses, by nature, and without draining the cheese would end up with a very open inner texture, at best.
At worst, the cheese would never form a rind and could actually begin to “rot” from the inside out.
It will be interesting to follow this up, as this weekend I plan to make a Pepper Jack. I thank you for the encouragement, much better than the complete squelch from the previous posting.
I do wonder if you read the position of Eran Wajswol from my post, regarding the sealing of the rind due to ‘excess’ pressure, surely equally as important to improper draining?
Will keep you posted on the results. I firmly believe the results of my tests warrant further work.
Just a thought here, not that I have the definitive answer. Since we are attempting to maintain the same psi in our pressing with heavier weights, the question then becomes, “How much pressure is ‘excess?’
Just a thought here, not that I have the definitive answer. Since we are attempting to maintain the same psi in our pressing with heavier weights, the question then becomes, “How much pressure is ‘excess?’
Now you’re talking!
I firmly believe there is more going on than we think. There are so many variables with cheese making, pinning your hopes on just pressure is not the answer. I for one would rather go with a light pressure than hundreds of pounds!
Variations in culture strength, milk, Calcium, cooking temp, acid production all will affect the ‘meld’ at the end point. As Eran Wajswol pointed out, it is possible to seal the rind preventing whey expulsion, leading to a cheese with more moisture than needed.
It is also possible to ‘case harden’ the curds by cooking too quickly preventing whey expulsion. Now in this case, slam on the pressure and seal the rind, you’ll have further problems.
I think the whole matter is well worthy of discussion, rather than being rejected out of hand.
I’m all for discussion; but I’m saying that our increase in pressing weight is not “excessive.” We are merely adjusting the weight to maintain the psi called for in the recipe. A lighter pressure, even for extended time, cannot do an adequate job of pressing a cheese. In my estimation, excessive pressure would be significantly increasing the psi, not just the lbs. I’m with Dave here - my cheeses have been far superior since I’ve started using adjusted weights.
In my estimation, excessive pressure would be significantly increasing the psi, not just the lbs. I’m with Dave here - my cheeses have been far superior since I’ve started using adjusted weights.
You’ve lost me here. If you increase the psi, then you’re increasing the weight (lbs). Surely the two go hand in hand.
We seem to have missed the point. I am reporting that I got a better rind by ‘decreasing’ the poundage to only 15lbs. The cheese is solid, little flex, the rind is dry with no leakage and without any blemishes. I am trying to report, in my case a better rind with less pressure, but we’re getting wrapped up in psi versus pressure yet again.
When they speak about pressing ur cheese @ 40 psi (final press on traditional cheddar) this doesn’t mean to apply 40 pounds on every square inch of our mold surface ..
i have 6” mold this is equal to 28 square inch, if the above is right, then i will have to put 1120 pounds on the top of my press, and this is absolutely not correct..
what i just found out, is that when they mention psi , they mean the hydraulic meter pressure which u read it on the pressure meter
We’re not communicating here. I’m saying that weight used to press is spread out over 28 sq. in. of surface area using a 6” mold. The recipes I’m using were designed for a 4” mold which is only 12.5 sq in. In order to get the SAME psi at the surface of the cheese, the WEIGHT must be adjusted accordingly. For example, 40 lbs on a 4” mold would equal 3.2 lbs per sq. in. But 40 lbs on a 6” mold only equals 1.4 lbs per sq. in. My recipes are NOT in psi, but in actual weight. So a little math is required to get the equivalent pressure with a larger surface. Its not the rind formation that I’m so concerned with, its the overall cheese. Newbie, if you’re getting a cheese that satisfies you, then you have accomplished your purpose. Great, congratulations and keep it up. For my part, the adjusted weight seems to be producing a superior cheese to what I had before.
So, where have we got too? Nowhere?
As I stated at the beginning of this thread there is something horribly wrong with the way we work out these pressures, it defies basic physics.
A military saying goes ‘bullshit baffles brains’ so lets concentrate on the basics. Lets forget all the fancy talk of Psi, pressure, lbs per,and all the other emotive stuff which gets bandied about when this subject comes up and consider the following.
If you apply force in a downward fashion to say a disc of 4” in diameter, then apply the same force over a lager area, lets say 5 feet in diameter. The way things stand at the moment means you would have to step the pressure up by thousands of percent to achieve the same result? Totally ridiculous. Downward pressure on a disc is the same at the center as it is at the edge, there is no need to increase the pressure to account for a wider disc.
Now take a second scenario. We have a tube with 4” of material inside, applying pressure to the top will need X pressure to compress it. Now increase the contents by 2, this will lead to a necessary pressure increase of 2X to achieve the same amount of compression.
With this in mind, the only time we need to increase the pressure would be by increasing the depth of the mould.
In practical terms. Using the same mould say 6” with 2 gallons it would be one pressure, increase that to 4 gallons and then you would need to increase the pressure.
So, I believe my hypothesis to be correct, “there is something wrong” with the present position on pressure.
So, where have we got too? Nowhere?
As I stated at the beginning of this thread there is something horribly wrong with the way we work out these pressures, it defies basic physics.
Actually, it is very basic maths and it isn’t being defied. What may be missing is something about cheese behaviour.
A military saying goes ‘bullshit baffles brains’ so lets concentrate on the basics. Lets forget all the fancy talk of Psi, pressure, lbs per,and all the other emotive stuff which gets bandied about when this subject comes up and consider the following.
Well certianly lets forget about the emotive stuff, like this sentence.
If you apply force in a downward fashion to say a disc of 4” in diameter, then apply the same force over a lager area, lets say 5 feet in diameter. The way things stand at the moment means you would have to step the pressure up by thousands of percent to achieve the same result? Totally ridiculous. Downward pressure on a disc is the same at the center as it is at the edge, there is no need to increase the pressure to account for a wider disc.
And here we are at basic physics.
If you’re using the same weight, say one of my 10lb weights over 4” and 5 feet. You need a 4” and 5’ follower.
In the first case my great big weight is teetering on top of a tiny area; in the second, it is sitting in the middle of the
pretty wide expanse, almost as wide as I’m tall! OMG! A cheese as big as me!
Yes, you’re right, the force across the followers is the same at the edges as in the middle.
And the force on the 4” and the 5’ follower is the same. *But* force is not pressure.
Pressure is force / unit area. i.e pounds per square inch, or newton per sq. metre if you prefer SI units.
So to achieve the same force over the entire surface of your 5’ cheese as your 4” cheese you need to multiply by 225
(30*30 / 2*2 = 225). And I agree that 2250lb is a lot of weight, but the logistics of making a 5’ wheel of cheese is such that I would never even be able to get the pressing stage. I don’t think that much milk will fit in my sink!
Now take a second scenario. We have a tube with 4” of material inside, applying pressure to the top will need X pressure to compress it. Now increase the contents by 2, this will lead to a necessary pressure increase of 2X to achieve the same amount of compression.
Right .. now this is not such simple physics. However I think (and I’m could well be wrong) that the cheese is like a spring.
The force applied to a spring to compress it is
F = k (extended length - compressed length).
In other words, the longer the spring, the more force you have to exert. And the more you squish it, the more you have to to squish it.
But my analogy is a bad one, because the cheese doesn’t spring back. But you are right.
If you have a taller cheese and want to squish it to the same same as your smaller one, you have to apply more force.
Even if you want to squish both to half their original sizes, you have to apply more force for the taller one. Double the force if its double the height.
With this in mind, the only time we need to increase the pressure would be by increasing the depth of the mould.
In practical terms. Using the same mould say 6” with 2 gallons it would be one pressure, increase that to 4 gallons and then you would need to increase the pressure.
So, I believe my hypothesis to be correct, “there is something wrong” with the present position on pressure.
You have made two hypotheses.
1) increasing area does not require increased force (weight)
2) increasing height requires increased force.
#1 is wrong.
#2 is correct.
I think there is still a lot more to be worked out here. These are not simple springs being squished but organic products whose spring constants ( ) etc. vary according to how they are produced.
Keep thinking and criticising! Its what makes us human.
Braufrau,
Excellent, informative post.
As far as I’m concerned, the proof is in the pudding, as they say.
Since I’ve been using higher pressing weights (for the 8” diameter wheels I make), I have made the best cheese of my life.
I don’t need this fact proven to me, but it’s nice to have someone explain the mathematics, regardless.
This has been discussed many times on both forums that I frequent and at first it seems nearly everyone is skeptical of the need for higher press weights when moving up in size.
I am yet to see someone, that has actually given the higher weights a try, that has not become completely sold on the idea.
Thanks again for the post and the information.
It is very much appreciated.
Beaufrau, I agree with Dave that yours was an excellent, thoughtful post. You did a particularly good job of explaining the difference between force and pressure. It has been discussed in other threads but every new member will not be able to read everything that is here.
However, the cheese in the press is not analgous to a spring. The cheese is actually an incompressible semi-solid. When we apply force to the follower on one side of the cheese, the other side of the cheese experiences an equal force in the opposite direction. This makes the net force on the cheese zero, so the cheese does not move.
The cheese is, however, under pressure. At the interface between curds, where there is whey that needs to be expelled, that pressure forces the whey out through the nooks and crannies between the curds until it reaches the exterior of the cheese and is wicked away by the cheesecloth that covers the cheese in the mold. The pressing force is increased gradually in some cheeses (e.g., cheddar) so that the curds do not knit together too rapidly, blocking some of the whey from being expelled. If this happened there would be excess moisture in the cheese.
The pressure is the same throughout the cheese, just as tthe air pressure is the same throughout the volume of an inflated tire.
The cheese itself, being a soft solid, does not have the properties of a fluid (like whey) and so is constrained to the interior of the mold. It is not so completely solid though, such that if you were to put a large hole in the side of the mold it would be less constrained, and under sufficient pressure it would begin to extrude out of the opening.
